[Grok-dev] Caveman style articles

[Mike Orr]

On Jan 9, 2008 6:28 AM, Aroldo Souza-Leite <asouzaleite at gmx.de> wrote:
> Meanwhile, I wonder: your article (http://linuxgazette.net/115/orr.html)
> doesn't mention Grok explicitly among the plethora of Python web
> frameworks.

The article was written 2 1/2 years ago.  It also doesn't mention
Pylons, which I'm using now.

> Is the Grok community's ambition to make a Component
> Architecture accessible to Brian by clubbing down all that grew
> unpythonic in Zope a topic for you? Do you think it's enough said just
> to count Grok implicitly as one of "several advanced Zope add-ons"?.

I don't know.  I haven't looked at Grok closely enough to understand
what it does or how it might be useful to me.  I have my hands full
right now with Buffet, Routes, and WebHelpers development.  Maybe Noah
will "educate" me and knock some sense into me about why I should love
Grok.  But I do believe strongly in interoperability between Python
tools and in making things more pythonic.  I've started thinking about
a caveman web site; maybe this concept of interoperability/pythonicism
will provide a focus for it.

Someday I might write an article about Python's emerging collection of
interoperable web tools, but I don't think the time is right yet.
We're on the verge of a breakthrough, with TG2 being built on top of
Pylons, and TG spinning off generic tools, and Paste spinning off
generic tools (WebOb, Error-whatsitsname), and Django interested in
some of the Paste tools, and Grok bringing some of the parts of recent
frameworks into Zope (if I understand it correctly).  But I don't
think the breakthrough has quite happened yet.  But Ian Bicking
blogged something very interesting in August.  2007 was the first year
that the number of active Python web frameworks actually shrunk.  That
means that a higher percentage of people are happy with the four major
choices (Django, Pylons, TurboGears, and Zope), and we can get on with
improving them rather than reinventing the wheel.
http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/21/the-shrinking-python-web-framework-world/

BTW, My experience with Zope is limited to one application right after
Zope became public.  I was turned off by DTML and the lack of
developer documentation (it was all geared toward content managers in
those days).  I know Zope has improved considerably since then. I'm
also waiting for Zope 3 to finish obsoleting Zope 2 with its
nonstandard cruft.  Grok is a promising milestone in that regard.

PS. I should have mentioned that my social history was specifically
regarding the situation in the US.  I know other countries have
evolved somewhat differently.

-- 
Mike Orr <sluggoster at gmail.com>