[Zope-CMF] Re: Chicken and the Egg -- WAS -- Using CMF without portal like features

[Lynn Walton]

I try not to use the mailing list just to post "here here" or "me too" type of
comments.  But in this case I'm going to make an exception because I feel like it
is VERY important that the CMF creators understand that this is how MANY
developer's feel.  I wholeheartedly agree with Amr's comments.

I want desperately to use the CMF, but the docs don't seem to start at anything
like the beginning.  And I agree that what Amr and I are asking for isn't spoon
feeding to a total ignoramus who isn't willing to do any work at all to help
himself, or to a total beginner at web application development.   But, I've been
trying for weeks to get enough info to make a decision to use CMF, and despite
pouring over everything written on the CMF website, I can't put the basics
together.  The docs spend  a lot of time on outlines or the conceptual idea of CMF,
but little on how to really do it. It's leading me to a decision not to use CMF,
which greatly saddens me since I think if there were enough docs that I think I
could put it together faster, and safer, then it would be the best decision for me
to go with.

It really does feel like Amr's "cheezy metaphor" .... that we're having to " spin
my own rope, smelt the iron and make myself the axe and the hooks and the rest of
the climbing gear from scratch".

I'm sympathetic to the folks trying to build and refine the CMF product not having
enough time to do docs too, but it doesn't help my frustration level.

Thanks,
Lynn


Amr Malik wrote:

> > > I've seen very little beginner info that starts with using the different
> > > types of CMF content types, despite having search through the docs and
> > > exploring numerous times.
> >
> >
> > You are going to have to customize more skins, if you don't like the
> > current layout.
> >
> > >  I believe that many other web developer's are
> > > going to have this same need to have some sites that aren't portal
> > > oriented for end users, but that still take advantage of the CMF
> > > framework for either workflow or separation of presentation and content
> > > or both.  So, I'd sure like to see some good tutorial docs geared toward
> > > that.
> >
> >
> > Could be you would write one?
> >
>
> To take my own personal example, because I'm in the same kayak,
> I am a beginner with CMF and I would love to write documentation for it, but
> I am at a point currently where I can hardly tell my PortalWorkflow from my
> PortalSkins, and it would be kinda tough to write anything useful!
>
> This documentation issue is a bit slippery one! How to write documentation
> for something that you're trying to learn, without actually knowing the
> system that you're trying to document. In my opinion, the initial
> responsibility
> lies with people who know the system to teach it to new comers (with some level
> of detail which may seem redundant if not ridiculous to people who can crank
> out a product in a matter of days!)
>
>   And I don't necessarily mean handholding
> and spoonfeeding people, but at least something that can be grokked by lessay
> a current web-developer with some web-app/db/appsvr experience. Currently,
> if there is any documentation available, sometimes it just talks about
> interfaces etc, and if one doesn't understand the framework (chicken) to begin
> wit, they can't do anything useful with it to create anything usable (egg)
> such that they can build upon that knowledge and extend to suit their needs
> (chicken?)
>
> The current method of everyone new to the system slogging through the code
> seems a bit inefficient and counter-productive as far as grassroots Zope+CMF
> penetration is concerned! But maybe that's not the goal to begin with, and I
> just misunderstood the whole opensource thang!
>
> just my 2 cents (canadian) :)
>
> Amr
>
> P.S I don't want to sound like an ungrateful prick! There is some documentation
> for CMF, yet it seems mainly for the initiated (with some exceptions).
> However, from where I stand, it seems like a sheer cliff, and it would take me
> a while to spin my own rope, smelt the iron and make myself the axe and the
> hooks and the rest of the climbing gear from scratch ;) (here I go with the
> cheezy metaphors again!)
>
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