[Zope-CMF] Re: Chicken and the Egg -- WAS -- Using CMF withou t portal like features

Boddy Stephen Stephen.Boddy@btcellnet.net
Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:17:11 +0100


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Tres,

I'm not attacking you Tres, but this is a perfect example of the problem.
These slides tell me (a grasshopper) what the CMF can do, without explaining
the techniques you (the Master) would use. Short of me spending the next
several months reading code, (particularly code written by someone else
who's a more experienced coder, and possibly :o) much smarter than me) then
it is highly unlikely that I, or someone like me, is going to be able to
create this documentation.

Until someone with the knowledge and understanding takes on the onerous,
difficult and decidedly boring task of creating end-user documentation,
there will be a limited take up of CMF. This is not because of inherent
problems / shortcomings of CMF, but rather the large investment of time to
achieve professional, commercially acceptable results. At a time when time
is at a premium, it's difficult to justify the time needed to understand the
CMF, in order to make a judgment call as to whether it's viable, write
documentation, or adapt it to one's needs.

In the long run I could see the documentation helping out. There seems to
lots of newbie style questions on this list, which to me should be more
about the development, bug-fixin' and improvement of CMF. A reduction in
this level of "noise" (Zope-CMF-[FAQ|Newbie]? Vote now!) would probably
justify a knowledgable persons time. I'm sure there'd be dozens of
beta-readers on this list alone.

Regards
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: Tres Seaver [mailto:tseaver@palladion.com]
Sent: 31 July 2001 13:18
To: Lynn Walton; zope-cmf@zope.org
Subject: Re: [Zope-CMF] Re: Chicken and the Egg -- WAS -- Using CMF
without portal like features


Lynn Walton wrote:

> I try not to use the mailing list just to post "here here" or "me too"
type of
> comments.  But in this case I'm going to make an exception because I feel
like it
> is VERY important that the CMF creators understand that this is how MANY
> developer's feel.  I wholeheartedly agree with Amr's comments.
> 
> I want desperately to use the CMF, but the docs don't seem to start at
anything
> like the beginning.  And I agree that what Amr and I are asking for isn't
spoon
> feeding to a total ignoramus who isn't willing to do any work at all to
help
> himself, or to a total beginner at web application development.   But,
I've been
> trying for weeks to get enough info to make a decision to use CMF, and
despite
> pouring over everything written on the CMF website, I can't put the basics
> together.  The docs spend  a lot of time on outlines or the conceptual
idea of CMF,
> but little on how to really do it. It's leading me to a decision not to
use CMF,
> which greatly saddens me since I think if there were enough docs that I
think I
> could put it together faster, and safer, then it would be the best
decision for me
> to go with.
> 
> It really does feel like Amr's "cheezy metaphor" .... that we're having to
" spin
> my own rope, smelt the iron and make myself the axe and the hooks and the
rest of
> the climbing gear from scratch".
> 
> I'm sympathetic to the folks trying to build and refine the CMF product
not having
> enough time to do docs too, but it doesn't help my frustration level.


Perhaps the slides from my OSCon tutorial would help some:

   http://cmf.zope.org/Members/tseaver/oss_2001/building_sites


The original text is there as portal content, along with the

StarOffice slides.

The outline implied by the slides is a likely start on a "CMF 

Site Manager's Guide", I think.

Tres.
-- 
===============================================================
Tres Seaver                                tseaver@zope.com
Zope Corporation      "Zope Dealers"       http://www.zope.com


_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist  -  Zope-CMF@zope.org
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker for bug reports and feature
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<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tres,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm not attacking you Tres, but this is a perfect =
example of the problem. These slides tell me (a grasshopper) what the =
CMF can do, without explaining the techniques you (the Master) would =
use. Short of me spending the next several months reading code, =
(particularly code written by someone else who's a more experienced =
coder, and possibly :o) much smarter than me) then it is highly =
unlikely that I, or someone like me, is going to be able to create this =
documentation.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Until someone with the knowledge and understanding =
takes on the onerous, difficult and decidedly boring task of creating =
end-user documentation, there will be a limited take up of CMF. This is =
not because of inherent problems / shortcomings of CMF, but rather the =
large investment of time to achieve professional, commercially =
acceptable results. At a time when time is at a premium, it's difficult =
to justify the time needed to understand the CMF, in order to make a =
judgment call as to whether it's viable, write documentation, or adapt =
it to one's needs.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In the long run I could see the documentation helping =
out. There seems to lots of newbie style questions on this list, which =
to me should be more about the development, bug-fixin' and improvement =
of CMF. A reduction in this level of &quot;noise&quot; =
(Zope-CMF-[FAQ|Newbie]? Vote now!) would probably justify a =
knowledgable persons time. I'm sure there'd be dozens of beta-readers =
on this list alone.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Regards</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Steve</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Tres Seaver [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:tseaver@palladion.com">mailto:tseaver@palladion.com</A>]<=
/FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: 31 July 2001 13:18</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Lynn Walton; zope-cmf@zope.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [Zope-CMF] Re: Chicken and the Egg -- =
WAS -- Using CMF</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>without portal like features</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Lynn Walton wrote:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I try not to use the mailing list just to post =
&quot;here here&quot; or &quot;me too&quot; type of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; comments.&nbsp; But in this case I'm going to =
make an exception because I feel like it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; is VERY important that the CMF creators =
understand that this is how MANY</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; developer's feel.&nbsp; I wholeheartedly agree =
with Amr's comments.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I want desperately to use the CMF, but the docs =
don't seem to start at anything</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; like the beginning.&nbsp; And I agree that what =
Amr and I are asking for isn't spoon</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; feeding to a total ignoramus who isn't willing =
to do any work at all to help</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; himself, or to a total beginner at web =
application development.&nbsp;&nbsp; But, I've been</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; trying for weeks to get enough info to make a =
decision to use CMF, and despite</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; pouring over everything written on the CMF =
website, I can't put the basics</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; together.&nbsp; The docs spend&nbsp; a lot of =
time on outlines or the conceptual idea of CMF,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; but little on how to really do it. It's leading =
me to a decision not to use CMF,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; which greatly saddens me since I think if there =
were enough docs that I think I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; could put it together faster, and safer, then =
it would be the best decision for me</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to go with.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It really does feel like Amr's &quot;cheezy =
metaphor&quot; .... that we're having to &quot; spin</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; my own rope, smelt the iron and make myself the =
axe and the hooks and the rest of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the climbing gear from scratch&quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I'm sympathetic to the folks trying to build =
and refine the CMF product not having</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; enough time to do docs too, but it doesn't help =
my frustration level.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Perhaps the slides from my OSCon tutorial would help =
some:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; <A =
HREF=3D"http://cmf.zope.org/Members/tseaver/oss_2001/building_sites" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://cmf.zope.org/Members/tseaver/oss_2001/building_=
sites</A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The original text is there as portal content, along =
with the</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>StarOffice slides.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The outline implied by the slides is a likely start =
on a &quot;CMF </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Site Manager's Guide&quot;, I think.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tres.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Tres =
Seaver&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
tseaver@zope.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Zope Corporation&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&quot;Zope Dealers&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.zope.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.zope.com</A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>_______________________________________________</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Zope-CMF maillist&nbsp; -&nbsp; =
Zope-CMF@zope.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf</A></F=
ONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>See <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker</A> for bug =
reports and feature requests</FONT>
</P>

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