[Zope-CMF] Hard time grokking Zope-CMF

10 Oct 2001 22:24:01 -0600

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OK, that's helpful, thanks -- some follow-on questions/comments:

1. Please -- for the sake of all newbies -- put something on the CMF
home page which explains what Zope CMF is and isn't, particularly
relative to what people probably expect when they are coming to check
out "a CMS system". (e.g. it's really more
portal/personalization/community, than classical CMS which would typical
include content editors, layout designers, workflow, etc).

2. Is the Zope CMF workflow component the same as DCWorkflow? If not,
how do they differ?

3. I'm interested in the metadata piece, but again, am having a hard
time grokking it. I've been playing with zope for a couple of weeks now.
What I've come away with, is that to create your own "content type", you
create your own ZClass, and define your own properties and methods.
Frankly, I think it's a great mechanism and can't imagine it done any
better. But the Zope CMF metadata section appears to take some kind of
different approach. Is there any document anywhere which compares and
contrasts the two approaches, particularly with respect to which
approach is more appropriate under which circumstances?

Thanks again,

Bryan

On Wed, 2001-10-10 at 05:56, Tres Seaver wrote:

    seb bacon wrote:
   =20
    > * Bryan Field-Elliot <bryan_lists@netmeme.org> [011010 06:19]:
    >=20
    >>For example -- who exactly is doing most of the content creation in Z=
ope
    >>CMF -- is it site operators, or is it end-users? A CMS system is
    >>typically used by site staff to maintain the site -- defining content
    >>types, roles, workflow, etc.  However, in Zope CMF, I see an awful lo=
t
    >>of stuff related to end-users personalizing their home page,
    >>contributing messages or discussion threads, etc -- not really
    >>"classical content", but rather, it's community and portal stuff. So =
the
    >>"Content Management" moniker doesn't seem to fit so neatly as, say,
    >>"portal, personalization, and community" might.
    >>
    >=20
    > You're absolutely right - you *see* things relating to a community
    > portal.  But what you see isn't the CMF, it's the CMFDefault demo
    > site.  In a nutshell, the CMF is a *toolkit* for solving particular C=
M
    > problems like workflow and personalisation.=20
    > Here's a list of the problems the CMF + Zope solves so far:=20
    >=20
    > - workflow
    > - metadata (Dublin Core)
    > - membership & roles-based security
    > - personalisation
    > - skins (content and presentation cleanly separated)
    > - multiple user interfaces (TTW, FTP, webDAV)
    > - content syndication
    > - indexing
    > - rolling back actions (undoing)
    >=20
    > It doesn't have a solution for authors to create and edit web pages
    > based on complex templates, which I think a lot of people need; this
    > is in the pipeline for the next version.
    >=20
    > There is nothing about the toolset which means you have to use it for
    > "portal, personalization, and community".  The reason many people get
    > this impression is because the demo site supplied with the CMF
    > fulfills this role.  I think in terms of a graphics toolkit. The CMF
    > is like GTK+: it provides widgets which solve common (GUI/CMS)
    > problems.  CMFDefault is like Gnome: it uses the underlying toolkit t=
o
    > meet a specific requirement (Desktop / Community Portal).
   =20
    To extend Seb's excellent reply, I'll provide some "hysterical" backgro=
und.
   =20
    The CMF (n=E9 PTK, for Portal Toolkit) was originally planned as a set =
of
    tools for allowing people to build Zope.org-like sites.  While these *a=
re*
    "community" or "portal" sites, they are also "content management" sites=
;
    such sites distribute the content creation role (not just discussions, =
but
    documents, software, images, etc.) across their entire membership.
   =20
    During its lifetime, we (Zope Corp, n=E9 Digital Creations :) have used=
 it on
    several consulting gigs for which community-originated content was *not=
*
    part of the customer's (immediate) goals.  In particular, we used it to
    build the CMS for two large, multi site New Media company, where their
    producers develop and share content among multiple "properties".  Both
    customers' needs contributed significantly to the evolution of the CMF'=
s
    architecture, and we continue to propoose and build such solutions atop
    the CMF today.
   =20
    Hope that helps clarify,
   =20
    Tres.
    --=20
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    Tres Seaver                                tseaver@zope.com
    Zope Corporation      "Zope Dealers"       http://www.zope.com
   =20
   =20
    _______________________________________________
    Zope-CMF maillist  -  Zope-CMF@zope.org
    http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf
   =20
    See http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker for bug reports and featur=
e requests
   =20
   =20

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<BODY>OK, that's helpful, thanks -- some follow-on questions/comments: 
 
1. Please -- for the sake of all newbies -- put something on the CMF home page which explains what Zope CMF is and isn't, particularly relative to what people probably expect when they are coming to check out &quot;a CMS system&quot;. (e.g. it's really more portal/personalization/community, than classical CMS which would typical include content editors, layout designers, workflow, etc). 
 
2. Is the Zope CMF workflow component the same as DCWorkflow? If not, how do they differ? 
 
3. I'm interested in the metadata piece, but again, am having a hard time grokking it. I've been playing with zope for a couple of weeks now. What I've come away with, is that to create your own &quot;content type&quot;, you create your own ZClass, and define your own properties and methods. Frankly, I think it's a great mechanism and can't imagine it done any better. But the Zope CMF metadata section appears to take some kind of different approach. Is there any document anywhere which compares and contrasts the two approaches, particularly with respect to which approach is more appropriate under which circumstances? 
 
Thanks again, 
 
Bryan 
 
 
On Wed, 2001-10-10 at 05:56, Tres Seaver wrote:
<blockquote>
<pre>seb bacon wrote:

&gt; * Bryan Field-Elliot &lt;bryan_lists@netmeme.org&gt; [011010 06:19]:
&gt; 
&gt;&gt;For example -- who exactly is doing most of the content creation in Zope
&gt;&gt;CMF -- is it site operators, or is it end-users? A CMS system is
&gt;&gt;typically used by site staff to maintain the site -- defining content
&gt;&gt;types, roles, workflow, etc. However, in Zope CMF, I see an awful lot
&gt;&gt;of stuff related to end-users personalizing their home page,
&gt;&gt;contributing messages or discussion threads, etc -- not really
&gt;&gt;&quot;classical content&quot;, but rather, it's community and portal stuff. So the
&gt;&gt;&quot;Content Management&quot; moniker doesn't seem to fit so neatly as, say,
&gt;&gt;&quot;portal, personalization, and community&quot; might.
&gt;&gt;
&gt; 
&gt; You're absolutely right - you *see* things relating to a community
&gt; portal. But what you see isn't the CMF, it's the CMFDefault demo
&gt; site. In a nutshell, the CMF is a *toolkit* for solving particular CM
&gt; problems like workflow and personalisation. 
&gt; Here's a list of the problems the CMF + Zope solves so far: 
&gt; 
&gt; - workflow
&gt; - metadata (Dublin Core)
&gt; - membership &amp; roles-based security
&gt; - personalisation
&gt; - skins (content and presentation cleanly separated)
&gt; - multiple user interfaces (TTW, FTP, webDAV)
&gt; - content syndication
&gt; - indexing
&gt; - rolling back actions (undoing)
&gt; 
&gt; It doesn't have a solution for authors to create and edit web pages
&gt; based on complex templates, which I think a lot of people need; this
&gt; is in the pipeline for the next version.
&gt; 
&gt; There is nothing about the toolset which means you have to use it for
&gt; &quot;portal, personalization, and community&quot;. The reason many people get
&gt; this impression is because the demo site supplied with the CMF
&gt; fulfills this role. I think in terms of a graphics toolkit. The CMF
&gt; is like GTK+: it provides widgets which solve common (GUI/CMS)
&gt; problems. CMFDefault is like Gnome: it uses the underlying toolkit to
&gt; meet a specific requirement (Desktop / Community Portal).

To extend Seb's excellent reply, I'll provide some &quot;hysterical&quot; background.

The CMF (n&#233; PTK, for Portal Toolkit) was originally planned as a set of
tools for allowing people to build Zope.org-like sites. While these *are*
&quot;community&quot; or &quot;portal&quot; sites, they are also &quot;content management&quot; sites;
such sites distribute the content creation role (not just discussions, but
documents, software, images, etc.) across their entire membership.

During its lifetime, we (Zope Corp, n&#233; Digital Creations :) have used it on
several consulting gigs for which community-originated content was *not*
part of the customer's (immediate) goals. In particular, we used it to
build the CMS for two large, multi site New Media company, where their
producers develop and share content among multiple &quot;properties&quot;. Both
customers' needs contributed significantly to the evolution of the CMF's
architecture, and we continue to propoose and build such solutions atop
the CMF today.

Hope that helps clarify,

Tres.
-- 
===============================================================
Tres Seaver tseaver@zope.com
Zope Corporation &quot;Zope Dealers&quot; http://www.zope.com


_______________________________________________
Zope-CMF maillist - Zope-CMF@zope.org
http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-cmf

See http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK/Tracker for bug reports and feature requests

</pre>
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