[Zope] Unusual question

[Tony McDonald]

Tom,
I've cc'ed to the list as this may be useful to others...

>
> We are at the start of making an intranet, which will contain a database of
> procedures (how to handle some examinations etc). We want to make it able
> that people can query this database and get the information they want on
> there web-browser.

ie a relatively standard web application

> A day ago, we were confinced that PostgresSql with PHP3 (www.PHP3.org)
> would be the solution to this problem. This on a RedHat Linux 5.2 system
> with Apache as
> web-server. But now we've seen Zope. I'm wondering..., can Zope do the same
> things as PHP3? Or is this a complete different application? How stand Zope
> and PHP3 next to each other?

I've used PHP3 since it was PHP/FI and done lots of work in it. It's 
database integration is excellent and the ability to include PHP3 
code into an HTML document and have it 'executed' is really neat (I 
think CGI's are ugly, whereas code in the delivered doc itself is 
elegant - my opinion, YMMV). I've run PHP on Solaris and Linux, and 
used a lot of the contributed code.

Since I found out about Zope, I've desubscribed myself from the PHP 
lists and been focussing on Zope almost entirely. I posted a message 
a while ago 'Tough Questions about Zope' and got some excellent 
answers, for more details I'd check it out in the archives.


> I believe PHP3 is a scripting language... I'm wondering : is Zope also only
> a scripting language? Or is it more? Is the scripting language (=Python?)
> more powerfull then Zope)

PHP3 is a scripting language, and is relatively easy to get started 
in. I may get a 16-ton weight dropped on me (in joke) but I think 
that if you're used to scripting languages already, you may get your 
application up and running faster in PHP3, as Zope scripting ('DTML') 
requires a bit of a mind-flip.

However, once your application gets more complex, I think you'll find 
that Zope will start to pull ahead of PHP3 and eventually pull very 
far ahead. The list of things that Zope provides 'out-of-the-box', 
which are very difficult to do in PHP3 is pretty long; access 
permissions (at varying levels) at a per-directory and per-'object' 
level, editing of web pages online, *undo* - yes, undo!, and versions 
are the things that come to mind initially. There are many others. 
Obviously, there are some things in PHP3 that are a bit 'unusual' in 
Zope too (setting variables for instance! :)

The scripting language of Zope is Python - I've bought several Python 
books (personal rec: Internet Programming in Python by Watters, van 
Rossum and Ahlstrom - top geezers in the Python world) and have found 
it to be quite a beautiful language. You can't install Python 
programs 'directly' into your DTML document, but 'External Methods' 
seem quite easy to write. Once you become familiar with 'Products' 
and what *they* can do, your jaw *will* drop.

> Are there people, using PHP3 next to Zope?

This is a question I asked. The upshot is that it's pretty difficult 
to do in seemless way with current implementations of Apache (ie more 
or less impossible) but that a later version will do that.


> ps. Has Zope the capability to easely make these scripts? I mean not
> text-based , but in a certain IDE or RAD application?

I would say, yes. I would suggest reading the FAQ, then the 
documentation, reading the documentation again (especially the DTML 
and ZSQL documents), read it once more and then if you do decide to 
try Zope over PHP3, have a go at your application. I think that it's 
highly likely that you will be able to get by with just some DTML and 
a database connection.

I'm not knocking the documentation here - the DigiCool guys (and 
gals?) have relatively recently embraced the open-source concept and 
seem to be doing 10 things at once.

> Please, say in some simple words what Zope is and for what it can be
> used... I've read the web-page. But since I'm a stupid person in this field
> of webservers I can't understand what they are explaining.

I don't think you're stupid at all! :) There are some new and unusual 
concepts in Zope that many people will not be familiar with 
(particularly if you're coming from a 'traditional' web-publishing 
environment).

If it helps, I've been in contact with several other people, both 
here in the UK and elsewhere who are *extremely* excited about what 
Zope is and what it can do.

> Thanks in advance.
> Kind regards, Tom.

You're welcome - I got a lot of help starting out, just trying to 
pass it along... :)
tone
------
Dr Tony McDonald,  FMCC, Networked Learning Environments Project
The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 222 5888
Fingerprint: 3450 876D FA41 B926 D3DD  F8C3 F2D0 C3B9 8B38 18A2