[Zope] Zope magazine - The spirit of the community

[Mark Pratt]

hello trevor,

lots of stuff to cover ...

On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Trevor Toenjes wrote:

> Thanks for replying so I can understand your intentions.
> 
> > and we provided the facilities for a 3 day Zope 3 sprint and paid for
> > Jim Fulton to fly to Berlin to coach this session and give a 2 talks.
> >
> > that unfortunately wasn't free. but we have no regrets.
> >
> > in addition we have released free documentation in the past, this ZopeMag
> > issue includes a free article, not to mention written Open Source
> > software. i find your comment to be very unfair.
> 
> I did not know this.  This is valuable info.
> Thank you for contributing this way.
> BTW-I have suggested that we start giving credit on zope.org's homepage to
> groups that support Z3 sprints.  We need more sprints to get Z3 out faster.
> 
> > > If Beehive really wants to get into newsletter publishing,
> > Beehive should
> > > offer this for free and have advertisers pay for it.  After all - we are
> > > Zope users (OPEN SOURCE) with no pockets, NOT Oracle users with deep
> > > pockets.
> > i suggest you make your model work and compete with us who
> > can provide a better resource for the community.
> 
> I am sorry...I dont think you are doing THIS for the overall community.
> You are providing resources for the "PAYING COMMUNITY".

we'll maybe we should start talking semantics. because i disagree with
your definition because its too simplistic. but your arguments are
helping me formulate mine -- so keep doing that ;-)

here are 3 points that i would like you to consider for expanding
your definitiondisagree:

1. anybody who uses or develops zope software is part of the community
   if he/she/they/it *wants* to be. 

2. the majority of the community work is based on free software and
   everybody should try to contribute some free resources
   (but its not a requirement -- just good manners)

3. companies like Bizaar (Bizaar Shop) software and IT Meedia (Amphora)
   are part of the Zope community even if they do not release the majority
   of there software as Open Source.

Why? Because Zope is like an Operating System for Web Applications.
Good commercial software brings users, organizations and companies to
install Zope. Ditto for ZopeMag and beehive.

Once people beging to appreciateZope they may pay for the
development of custom software, some of this software is typically
released as OpenSource Software which benefits everybody.


> If you are doing this for the community, why aren't you part of the zope-web
> discussions and offering to help with community projects rather than
> developing your own?
> Beehive would be a welcomed contributor to these efforts.

Actually i popped in for one of the discussions and made a few
suggestions this week. But clearly there is still much work to be done.

> I am a NEW community advocate that would like to see more resources pooled
> together, not off into corporate corners.  Beehive could become a leader in
> this effort if you decide it is worthwhile.  Maybe you dont think the
> "community model" works well enough?

No I think the community model is working just fine. I just think the
community I'm thinking of is a little bigger than yours because I see
the contribution that even non OpenSource software brings long term
to Zope.
 
> > what i truly don't understand is why some people within the
> > community refuse to recognize that everbody in the community
> > makes different types of contributions. we are not forcing
> > anybody to do anything but are trying to provide options.
> 
> Again, I am in the mode that the community still needs "donated"
> contributions to grow.

I really object to the labeling of a "donor" vs. a "contributor".
Starting to sound like your trying to define second class Zope
citizens.  

> Yes-Beehive donates resources to the community, but this isnt one of them.
> Yes-Beehive has the right to cover its cost(not donate). Showing how
> developers can make money with Zope is the most important aspect of building
> the development community.
> Yes-Beehive seems to be building an admirable business model to make money
> with Zope.
> I want to understand where Beehive fits in and give credit where credit is
> due.
> 
> I started using Zope because of low cost of entry to do OO web apps with
> Python. And I embraced the idealism that the Zope community was bent on
> keeping things FREE for developers.
> I am trying to protect this ideal situation.

I'm all for ideal situations, community work, and other good stuff.

I'm just not that much into idealogy. 

> You still havent answered how the money is being used.  And you dont have to
> answer.  My perspective is that the zope community is not for profit.  We
> all suuport each other's efforts to charge for our development to end users,
> not necessarily charging each other.
> Maybe if you disclosed that 100% of the procedes will go to Z3 development
> and paying for more sprints then the community benefit would be clearer and
> easier to support.

Don't agree with your idealogy. Your free to start a resource charge
fees and allocate the money any way you see fit. I promise I'll never
tell you how I think you should allocate those resources without
contributing.
 
> Is it about the money?  Yes, it is about the money.  I would not have
> explored Zope if I had to pay for it.

Again, don't agree. We adopted Zope because it gave us freedom to
mold the software anyway we needed!

Why do so few people talk about freedom vs. cost is beyond me.


> I just want to understand if Beehive is trying to monetize the Zope
> community prematurely.

Even if we wanted to do that I don't think its possible to monetize
a community. So I don't know what your talking about here.

> Of course if you offer the mag to me for free, I will shut-up.  ;)

Well I guess we both know what's going to happen ;-)

Cheers,

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------
mark pratt  (managing director) 	mark@beehive.de
beehive elektronische medien GmbH       http://www.beehive.de
phone: +49 30 847-82 0                  fax: +49 30 847-82 299