[Zope] Re: What causes the community to stall so often?

[Terry Hancock]

(I can't believe this thread is still going, but what
the hey ... here's my 2 cents, I can hope it'll have
some impact)

I think the reason that Zope documentation is poor,
and in particular why Zope developers don't write much
is because they would much rather add features than
fix bugs and oversights in their earlier work (or
even think about them).

Take ZPT.  *Another* language?  Zope already maintains
one and depends heavily on another. They themselves
declare DTML a failure, but they've got it all right
this time?  "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me
twice, shame on me!" ;)

And ZPT is completely different, doesn't work
in all the same places, and is (IMHO) ridiculously
cumbersome and non-intuitive.  Maybe I haven't
given it a fair review yet, but the reality is, I
just don't have time for it. Certainly it is not
a natural extension to DTML, nor a replacement for
it.

Why not just fix DTML so it isn't so ridiculously
hard to document and use? Consider just a couple of
really obvious problems (dozens of more subtle problems
can no doubt be unearthed):

GET RID OF THE STUPID DASHES!
  "sequence-item"
         -- Oh come on!  Where'd that come from?
            Other languages (including Python), use a "."
            for this kind of purpose (e.g. why not represent
            "sequence" as a Python class with "item", "index"
            attributes and/or "odd()" "even()" methods).

            That would probably make the most sense. Barring
            that, why not simply substitute "_" for "-".
            Then at least, we could use:

            sequence_item.absolute_url()

            (for example), instead of the ridiculous
            work-around:

            _.getitem('sequence-item').absolute_url()

   "_."  -- Why do we have this?  In a Python script
            we use builtins as builtins, now they're all
            methods of this mysterious object. Why?  And is
            it REALLY that hard to fix?

            Actually namespaces in Zope are altogether
            a mess.  I'm not sure I even understand them
            now, but it seems to me that some simplification
            may be in order.

   DTML would be SOOOO much easier to understand 
   (and explain) if it only made sense to begin
   with.  (It's also notable that the above criticisms
   are actually of the Python API which exists inside
   DTML expressions. The worst criticism of this is
   that it is inconsistent with the Python API in Python
   Scripts).  And I emphasize that DTML is actually
   a very good concept -- DTML is like a rough sketch
   of a good idea. The problem is that it needs to
   be redrafted to capture that idea better.

   I did recently discover a rationalization which I
   applaud:

   Previously, the filesize of Image and File types was
   acquired from the "getSize()" method, while DTML
   Documents and Methods used "get_size()".  In Zope 2.4.3,
   both methods are available for both sets of classes,
   though I haven't figured out which is preferred (the
   rationalization is not reported in the Zope 2.5 API
   online at www.zope.org).

Zope is a good thing already. It doesn't need more
junk. What it needs is a whole lot of straightening up.

And if it were straightened up, it'd be a whole lot
easier for people like me, who *like* to write, to
write documentation for it.  Right now I wouldn't
touch it with a ten-foot pole!

In short, the documentation is poor, because even the
people who would write it can't figure Zope out.

Contrast with how carefully the Python syntax options
are reviewed (not just by Python developers, but by
Python programmers worldwide) before they allow
additions. That kind of conservativism can be
frustrating, but it also keeps the API pretty clear
of debris, and makes the way a lot easier for
experienced and new developers alike. Zope
developers obviously appreciate this, or they
wouldn't have developed in Python to begin with,
so why not apply it to Zope?

What I'm waiting for is the day when *www.zope.org*
will print this message that www.python.org has had
(e.g. on the 2.1.2 release page) for some time:

"we've been very careful to fix only bugs and not
add new features."

That is such a warm feeling!  I wish I could feel
that way about Zope.

IMHO, of course,
Terry

-- 
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Terry Hancock
hancock@anansispaceworks.com       
Anansi Spaceworks                 
http://www.anansispaceworks.com 
P.O. Box 60583                     
Pasadena, CA 91116-6583
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