[Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)

sean.upton@uniontrib.com sean.upton@uniontrib.com
Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:07:55 -0800


This is well put.  I think this argument is also true of designers who don't
use WYSIWYG tools as well, for the same reason, I think: round-trip design
involves iterations of programmers messing with the behavioral and
integration aspects of templates while the designers want to keep changing
the design over time.  As each of these steps happens, DTML makes the two
have to communicate more and correct for missteps more, while ZPT allows for
each to operate more independently and still modify the code somewhat
independently, without the need to reverse-engineer and reintegrate.  This
is the case even when the designers use tools like Homesite or a text-editor
instead of GoLive or Dreamweaver.

Tech staffs have limited resources, and to be required for close technical
consultation on each presentation-layer redesign is an unnecessary drain on
technical resources.  ZPT helps minimize this by minimizing the need for
re-integration.

Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: J Cameron Cooper [mailto:jccooper@jcameroncooper.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 3:38 PM
To: zope@zope.org
Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)


>
>
>>DTML just doesn't scale
>>to non-techies or content people who are talented at HTML, but not
>>'programming.' 
>>    
>>
>Being exactly what you are referring to, ie: someone who knows html, but
>not programming, I have to disagree.  I tried Zope initially BECAUSE of
>it's tag based scripting language.  I found it very easy to learn, and
>granted, I have encountered some syntax issues that were a problem for a
>while, but searching on zope.org and asking for direction from list
>members, everything has worked out just fine.  I constructed 26 virtual
>sites with Zope and DTML.  I have also looked at ZPT and found it rather
>confusing.  I guess maybe it's just the way I'm wired or how I process
>information, in any case, since we're not all the same, I feel that
>continuing to offer both solutions would be the most appropriate course.
>
You're right: if you have good control over all the people working on 
your site (i.e. by yourself, with other of the  Zope-savvy) either 
templating language can work fine. DTML, being straightforward, might 
even be easier (depending on if you've been trained to think XMLishly or 
not.) Note of course that Page Templates *look* a lot more obscure than 
they actually are.

But throw in a couple designers with WYSIWYG editors and all hell's out 
for noon with DTML, so far as round-tripping your design is concerned. 
If that'll never happen, don't worry about it; if it might, or will, 
think very hard. And test the likely tools.

There are people who think best in both DTML and ZPT modes, and I don't 
think it's a bad thing to have both lying around, so long as it is clear 
that "best practice" involves Page Templates (which I think it does), 
and the reasons for that are explained.

       --jcc



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