[Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)

[Terry Hancock]

On Sunday 23 February 2003 09:00 am, Fernando Martins wrote:

> Maik Jablonski wrote:
> > Stephan is not the only one... I like ZPT (great concept), but I still
> > prefer DTML too... Just another measurement error? ;)

> Maybe you don't work with a designer(s) who barely understand html and you
> don't need to go back and forth between design and coding? Then, zpt might
> not be make a big difference?

Some people would consider that an organizational problem.  Either pay for 
training, or get smarter designers. ;-D

For my purposes, anyway, a designer who "barely understands HTML" is useless, 
anyway.  As I mentioned, I don't think that form without function is worth 
pursuing.  Anyway, we're more likely to have designers who've never seen a 
GUI page designer (or have and hate them).  You know -- the kind of designers 
who try to make things look good in Internet Explorer, Mozilla, *and* w3m.

As for the "try it and you'll know we're right" attitude -- If I bought into 
that, I'd be programming web pages in Lisp by now. Lispers have been swearing 
we'll all convert as soon as we get over our irrational fear of parentheses 
since, what?, the 1970's?

I think there's another perfectly good explanation for why people "who use 
both ZPT and DTML" prefer ZPT, while those who "only use DTML" prefer DTML:

1) After assessing it, it was obvious we hated ZPT. And we don't *have* to 
use it for anything, because it's redundant.

2) After assessing it, you loved ZPT. However, you can't live without DTML so 
you still use it.

So, naturally, you're stuck using both,  whereas we don't need anything else, 
because we're happy.  I personally find this the most rational explanation. 

I think the real distinction between ZPT and DTML partisans is what it is 
they spend most of their time doing, and how they think about the resulting 
applications:  If you are using a basically static site design, which is 
simply a front-end to a python application, ZPT may be great -- and if it 
solves your organizational problem, very much so.  But if your site is 
basically generative -- being itself restructured by the output of a python 
application, and not a mere vessel for it, then DTML is awfully handy.

Of course once you pick one or the other as a favorite, you'll probably wind 
up being biased to that simply because you know it well.  You will also tend 
to think one way or the other about the site design, further biasing your 
opinion.

Fortunately, the world is big enough for both of us.

One of the reasons I went for an integrated Python/Zope solution for my 
project was to avoid an excessive number of development languages. Python, 
being very general purpose, makes that feasible.  The downside is, I'm now 
reimplementing a lot of stuff in Python and DTML that is already available as 
PHP code.  The "hack" approach would be to just stick PHP into my application 
and be done with it, but I feel I'll get a better (smaller, faster, simpler, 
easier to interface) product if I keep things more integrated.

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com )
Anansi Spaceworks  http://www.anansispaceworks.com