[Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!

Sun Jan 8 17:06:34 EST 2006

Yes, we need hype!  And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features.

Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics
and data/object access without page reloads.  (like I am using with Dojo
right now)  What does Zope not provide these features "built-in"?

And yes, about the central docs.  A ton of info is available right on
Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google
searches.  Zope.org could use a more intuitive help finder maybe.  Actually,
how aboot a Zopedigg?  Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments?
That would be hot!  Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO.  The one thing I
would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I
have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to
provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way.  Having a ZopeDigg would
allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy
too.

The video tutorial should be made.  Like RoR and Symfony-project have.  It
shows beginners how easy something is to do.  And they will download it.  I
did.

Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more
hype for DTML. I KNOW!  99% of you hate it.  But every time I show someone
how to do it, their eyes light up.  It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP,
once you see it in action.  ZPT is just plain confusing to me.  I hate to
say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the
fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community.  And
even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no
hype about it, then it might.  And I don't want to keep using Zope without
it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many
advantages.  I wish there were more hype about it.

So, here's a big "wish" of mine too.  What if Zope was a *complete*
framework, including a web based IDE?  I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in
itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop
widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built
in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to
purchase and configure a database adapter.  This would provide a web based,
development framework like .NET using Visual Studio.  Only this would work
on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows!  It doesnt have to be
so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and
XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great.  I think we would have a KILLER
APP!

Well, maybe I am dreamin?  Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.

Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a
lot.  I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info.  Since I
started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to
42000.  Cool!

42000+ Sites in 2006
http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/

6000+ Sites  in 2002
http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/

Happy new year everyone!

On 1/3/06, Jonathan Cyr <cyrj at cyr.info> wrote:
>
> Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking?  Is there even
> a problem?   Is Python growing or shrinking?  Is there any connection?
>
> Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/
> 3rd party add-ons etc.  Is it working.  RubyonRails.com has none of this
> functionality.
>
> Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that
> provides a very small amount of "get started" information.
>
> Two Cents,
>
> -Jon
>
> Gert Thiel wrote:
>
> Dear friends.
>
> A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.
> At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in
> terms of attention and recognized widespread.
>
> Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone
> speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the
> shortcommings of J2EE.
>
> Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
> and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?
>
> Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org.
> Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have
> a look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any
> look at zope.org ‹ where isŠ You got it.
>
> To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
> Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its
> power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at
> the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
> hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?
>
> Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
>
> Make them love Zope at the very first look:
>
>     * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
>     * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
>       including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling
>       of success.
>
> Bribe the managers:
>
>     * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
>     * Include powerful XML processing facilities and
>     * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.
>
> Enable the beginners:
>
>     * Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹
>       documentation is a must.
>     * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,
>       mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at
>       one central location.
>
> Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the
> framework but from its community.
>
> And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.
>
> Regards,
>
>   Gert
>
> http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist  -  Zope at zope.orghttp://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> **   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
> (Related lists -
>  http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>  http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Cyr
> http://www.cyr.infohttp://www.weddingweblog.comcyrj@cyr.info
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope maillist  -  Zope at zope.org
> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
> **   No cross posts or HTML encoding!  **
> (Related lists -
>  http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
>  http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
>
>
>

--
Greg Fischer
1st Byte Solutions
http://www.1stbyte.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope/attachments/20060108/33a4c97f/attachment.htm