[Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy

Jaroslav Lukesh lukesh at seznam.cz
Tue Nov 27 10:47:20 EST 2007

Very nice words....

I have near complette mirror of the old.zope.org from 2004 or 2005 if 
someone wants (and rememner that old site and good where are many products 
that you couldnot find at web now). There are many fantastic products which 
I use at near each site. So I will try to put it online.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Von Lahndorff" <tom at modscape.com>

Zope2 + DTML + Python and you're good to go. I know a bunch of
developers/designers, including myself that use this combo all the
time. I currently use it for projects at a Fortune 500 company. The
docs suck but once you get in the groove you can bang out solid,
stable, good looking, standard compliant sites unbelievably fast.
Acquisition can be your best friend and you reuse a lot of your coding
for multiple projects. There are still developers on this list who use
DTML over ZPT, they just dont post much to it because of the ZPT
backlash you get when you do. I've gotten private messages off this
list from people though about DTML so there is support out there. Its
true that most of the products for Zope 2 have been updated in a while
but I can tell you that most will work fine with the latest Zope 2
release and are very customizable. The Zope2 ecosystem is pretty
mature and stable just poorly documented or supported. I do think
you'll probably get the "Zope Zen" quicker than you think and be able
to figure out a lot on your own.

On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:18 PM, Rene B wrote:

> I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve  researched 
> quite a
> few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I’ve  also
> looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah.
> I’m beginning to think there’s nothing  out there  for a newbie python
> programmer like myself.  I’m a Network Admin  that likes programming  but
> doesn’t have the time to get really proficient at it.
> I selected Python as a language of choice and that’s all I’ve used.   I’ve
> written a  few scripts .
> I’m interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you  it’s 
> impossible to
> select a tool.
> I’ve researched all the tools mentioned above.  The most important  thing 
> in my
> decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the 
> dynamic
> site. I don’t want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new 
> language.
> Its not python.  Not even close.  Out of all the ones I’ve  researched I 
> like
> Zope 2 the best.  Not sure why. I want some thing easy.  I like  DTML. It’s
> easy. I know why ZPT has it’s advantages but for ease of use it  doesn’t 
> come
> close to DTML. Most people like me wont  be building complex web  sites 
> and  I’d
> be the only working on it meaning I’ll do the HTML layout and code  the 
> dynamic
> portions of it. So I don’t’ need to worry about  an HTML editor  getting
> confused with the dynamic languages  mixed in blah blah  blah.
> I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction  it’s 
> going in.
> Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t  going
> anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support  on it when  needed and 
> I’m
> sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead.
> Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok’s new plugins  for 
> any
> template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about 
> template
> languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was "use the  one 
> that
> you like".  So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others  over 
> the
> one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they 
> choose.
> Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard.  I like  Mod_python 
> with
> PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I’ve seen. Yet 
> Mod_Python
> has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular.
> The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you  just 
> don’t
> know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new.  Zope  3 is 
> out of
> the question. Grok looks to me like  another CherryPy. It may be  easier 
> the
> Zope 3 but it’s not easier then Zope 2. Plus I’ve yet to get it  installed 
> on my
> windows XP to play.
> I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many 
> examples.
> Plus no auto generated content  like you get in Zope 2.  Yes some  magic 
> is
> good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out  with.People 
> like some
> magic. saves time.  Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to  me.
> So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it  released 
> after
> 2002. Plone is tooo much.
> There aren’t any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are  there
> haven’t been touched for years.
> Zope 2 wiki seems dead.  I was looking the other day for some type  of 
> auto
> CRUD for Zope 2. couldn’t find  anyting. No one seems to be adding 
> anything new
> to Zope 2 which scares me the most.
> If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it’s going to  be 
> around
> for awhile and have good support and new addons  being added all of  the 
> time to
> help me.

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