[Zope] Re: Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, , Django, CherryPy

Tres Seaver tseaver at palladion.com
Tue Nov 27 15:40:06 EST 2007

Hash: SHA1

Aaron Maupin wrote:
> Rene B <rb2.net-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w at public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> I'm beginning to think there's nothing  out there  for a newbie python 
>> programmer like myself.  I'm a Network Admin  that likes programming but 
>> doesn't have the time to get really proficient at it.
> ...
>> Out of all the ones I've researched I like 
>> Zope 2 the best.  Not sure why. I want some thing easy.  I like DTML. It's 
>> easy. I know why ZPT has it's advantages but for ease of use it doesn't come 
>> close to DTML. Most people like me wont  be building complex web sites and  I'd 
>> be the only working on it meaning I'll do the HTML layout and code the dynamic 
>> portions of it. So I don't' need to worry about  an HTML editor getting 
>> confused with the dynamic languages  mixed in blah blah  blah.
> Then your search is over.  Just use Zope 2.
> I'm in almost exactly your position.  I learned DTML because at the time 
> the Zope tutorials all taught it first (they probably still do), and 
> since I'm never going to be editing code except by hand, I don't worry 
> about DTML tags getting messed up.  Also, unless something has changed 
> you need to use DTML somewhat for ZSQL methods.  And anything that's 
> tricky to do in DTML/ZPT should probably be in a Python script anyway.
> Frankly, I've created half a dozen Zope sites over the last four years, 
> two of them fairly active medium-sized sites ( letsdating.jp and 
> gamesocks.com ), and Zope is basically just a fancy-pants container for 
> my Python scripts.  It works beautifully.  I know I'm not using the 
> "full power" of Zope, but as a container for Python scripts and with the 
> power of acquisition - one of my absolute favorite aspects of Zope 2 - 
> it makes development a snap.

This is indeed the "sweet spot" for the Zope2 TTW development model, and
I still use it myself, but with two caveats:

 - I *never* push a site to production using the TTW technologies unless
   I am personally committeed to maintaining it in perpetuity, because
   TTW code is near-impossible to collaborate on.

 - I *never* do more than prototype with TTW code if I plan to
   distribute the code across more sites than the one I built it on,
   because the mechanisms for moving TTW code are hideously hard to
   get right.

the "use Products over TTW" meme on the Zope lists is a direct result of
these two fact.  Being able to use filesystem tools (CVS / SVN, etc.) on
the code is all part of the same meme.  That meme is also why I wrote
tools (FSDumper, CMFSetup/GenericSetup) to make it easier to start with
a TTW prototype and later move the  code (and configuration) to the

- --
Tres Seaver          +1 540-429-0999          tseaver at palladion.com
Palladion Software   "Excellence by Design"    http://palladion.com
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