[Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy

Tom Von Lahndorff tom at modscape.com
Tue Nov 27 09:45:05 EST 2007

Zope2 + DTML + Python and you're good to go. I know a bunch of  
developers/designers, including myself that use this combo all the  
time. I currently use it for projects at a Fortune 500 company. The  
docs suck but once you get in the groove you can bang out solid,  
stable, good looking, standard compliant sites unbelievably fast.  
Acquisition can be your best friend and you reuse a lot of your coding  
for multiple projects. There are still developers on this list who use  
DTML over ZPT, they just dont post much to it because of the ZPT  
backlash you get when you do. I've gotten private messages off this  
list from people though about DTML so there is support out there. Its  
true that most of the products for Zope 2 have been updated in a while  
but I can tell you that most will work fine with the latest Zope 2  
release and are very customizable. The Zope2 ecosystem is pretty  
mature and stable just poorly documented or supported. I do think  
you'll probably get the "Zope Zen" quicker than you think and be able  
to figure out a lot on your own.

On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:18 PM, Rene B wrote:

> I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve  
> researched quite a
> few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python. I’ve  
> also
> looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah.
> I’m beginning to think there’s nothing  out there  for a newbie python
> programmer like myself.  I’m a Network Admin  that likes programming  
> but
> doesn’t have the time to get really proficient at it.
> I selected Python as a language of choice and that’s all I’ve used.   
> I’ve
> written a  few scripts .
> I’m interested in building dynamic web sites but I tell you  it’s  
> impossible to
> select a tool.
> I’ve researched all the tools mentioned above.  The most important  
> thing in my
> decision is that I know some Python and want to use it to build the  
> dynamic
> site. I don’t want to learn a new language to do that. ZPT is a new  
> language.
> Its not python.  Not even close.  Out of all the ones I’ve  
> researched I like
> Zope 2 the best.  Not sure why. I want some thing easy.  I like  
> DTML. It’s
> easy. I know why ZPT has it’s advantages but for ease of use it  
> doesn’t come
> close to DTML. Most people like me wont  be building complex web  
> sites and  I’d
> be the only working on it meaning I’ll do the HTML layout and code  
> the dynamic
> portions of it. So I don’t’ need to worry about  an HTML editor  
> getting
> confused with the dynamic languages  mixed in blah blah  blah.
> I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction  
> it’s going in.
> Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t  
> going
> anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support  on it when  
> needed and I’m
> sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead.
> Funny, I read something while reading news about Grok’s new plugins  
> for any
> template language . They used Genshi as an example and talked about  
> template
> languages and which one is better etc.. The bottom line was "use the  
> one that
> you like".  So I wish people would stop putting down DTML or others  
> over the
> one they prefer and continue to help those regardless of which they  
> choose.
> Back to trying to choose. I think Django is too hard.  I like  
> Mod_python with
> PSP. PSP seems to be more python like then anything I’ve seen. Yet  
> Mod_Python
> has terrible docs for people like me and it doesn't seem to popular.
> The other frameworks have some good ideas. I like Karrigell but you  
> just don’t
> know how long it will be supported.Gluon is cool but its new.  Zope  
> 3 is out of
> the question. Grok looks to me like  another CherryPy. It may be  
> easier the
> Zope 3 but it’s not easier then Zope 2. Plus I’ve yet to get it  
> installed on my
> windows XP to play.
> I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not many  
> examples.
> Plus no auto generated content  like you get in Zope 2.  Yes some  
> magic is
> good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out  
> with.People like some
> magic. saves time.  Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting to  
> me.
> So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it  
> released after
> 2002. Plone is tooo much.
> There aren’t any new products out for Zope 2 and the ones that are  
> there
> haven’t been touched for years.
> Zope 2 wiki seems dead.  I was looking the other day for some type  
> of  auto
> CRUD for Zope 2. couldn’t find  anyting. No one seems to be adding  
> anything new
> to Zope 2 which scares me the most.
> If I take the time to learn a tool I want to make sure it’s going to  
> be around
> for awhile and have good support and new addons  being added all of  
> the time to
> help me.
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