[Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django, CherryPy

Gregory Dudek dudek at cim.mcgill.ca
Tue Nov 27 11:14:03 EST 2007

I've been using Zope 2 since 2000 and like it a lot, but I think your  
concerns are
very valid.  I don't fully understand why the Zope 2 (and Zope 3)  
community seems so much less vibrant than it used to be,
but am aware of several well-known possible factors,  in particular  
the Zope2 vs Zope3 schism, the state of the zope.org web site, and  
the wide set of competing alternatives.  That said, Zope is very rich  
and, in my opinion, very mature.

I have used Zope 2 too extensively to give it up. I use it for  
several sites.
I don't see anything I like better, but have a nagging worry that  
Zope, and especially Zope 2, may become increasingly neglected as  
time goes by.
I hope I am wrong, but it is definitely something to be concerned about.
All in all, I'd still recommend Zope 2 and, in fact, hope for all of  
sake of us all that lots of other people continue to make this choice.
Note that even COBOL and the Amiga, the most obsolete technologies I  
can think of readily, still have developer communities, so even the  
worst-case scenarios won't imply a sudden Zope termination.

Personally, I find DTML a moderately ugly language, but very  
effective and easy to get in to.  I use it often, but
typically only in limited amounts per page.
When the going gets rough and complicated you
should think about using a Python scripts and resist the temptation  
of getting into hairy DTML tricks.

DTML in Zope is like salt: it is necessary to life,
very tempting and seductive, but can have bad consequences when used  
to excess.

Somebody asked about what things make Zope so appealing and without  
re-listing the whole feature set, the combination of the ZMI and the  
very simple and robust through-the-web stuff, the wide selection of  
both powerful and quick-to-use script and template solutions, and a  
good selection of plugin products are the top features.

Cheetah and Zope sounds like an obvious combination.  I am surprised  
it hasn't been done yet and will be shocked it if isn't implemented  
by somebody within another month or two.  One issue is that Cheetah  
has the non-XML ugliness of DTML without really big advantages in  
terms of functionality (even though it looks clean), and it would  
further fragment the community and set of options.  Splitting a  
community is a really dangerous idea.  Even Zope plus PHP might be a  
safer choice for the resulting sub-community (note I am holding my  
nose as I type this).

I've used Plone a fair bit, but find it too heavy for many simple  
applications, even though it has some really great features.  (Heavy  
in various ways.)  The Plone 2 vs Plone 3 migration just makes it  
more complicated.


On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:18 PM, Rene B wrote:

> I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve  
> researched quite a
> few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python.  
> I’ve also
> looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah....
> I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction  
> it’s going in.
> Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t  
> going
> anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support  on it when  
> needed and I’m
> sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead.
> I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not  
> many examples.
> Plus no auto generated content  like you get in Zope 2.  Yes some  
> magic is
> good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out  
> with.People like some
> magic. saves time.  Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting  
> to me.
> So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it  
> released after
> 2002. Plone is tooo much.

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