[Zope] Frustrated with Python and Frameworks. Zope, Grok, Django,
dudek at cim.mcgill.ca
Tue Nov 27 11:14:03 EST 2007
I've been using Zope 2 since 2000 and like it a lot, but I think your
very valid. I don't fully understand why the Zope 2 (and Zope 3)
community seems so much less vibrant than it used to be,
but am aware of several well-known possible factors, in particular
the Zope2 vs Zope3 schism, the state of the zope.org web site, and
the wide set of competing alternatives. That said, Zope is very rich
and, in my opinion, very mature.
I have used Zope 2 too extensively to give it up. I use it for
I don't see anything I like better, but have a nagging worry that
Zope, and especially Zope 2, may become increasingly neglected as
time goes by.
I hope I am wrong, but it is definitely something to be concerned about.
All in all, I'd still recommend Zope 2 and, in fact, hope for all of
sake of us all that lots of other people continue to make this choice.
Note that even COBOL and the Amiga, the most obsolete technologies I
can think of readily, still have developer communities, so even the
worst-case scenarios won't imply a sudden Zope termination.
Personally, I find DTML a moderately ugly language, but very
effective and easy to get in to. I use it often, but
typically only in limited amounts per page.
When the going gets rough and complicated you
should think about using a Python scripts and resist the temptation
of getting into hairy DTML tricks.
DTML in Zope is like salt: it is necessary to life,
very tempting and seductive, but can have bad consequences when used
Somebody asked about what things make Zope so appealing and without
re-listing the whole feature set, the combination of the ZMI and the
very simple and robust through-the-web stuff, the wide selection of
both powerful and quick-to-use script and template solutions, and a
good selection of plugin products are the top features.
Cheetah and Zope sounds like an obvious combination. I am surprised
it hasn't been done yet and will be shocked it if isn't implemented
by somebody within another month or two. One issue is that Cheetah
has the non-XML ugliness of DTML without really big advantages in
terms of functionality (even though it looks clean), and it would
further fragment the community and set of options. Splitting a
community is a really dangerous idea. Even Zope plus PHP might be a
safer choice for the resulting sub-community (note I am holding my
nose as I type this).
I've used Plone a fair bit, but find it too heavy for many simple
applications, even though it has some really great features. (Heavy
in various ways.) The Plone 2 vs Plone 3 migration just makes it
On Nov 26, 2007, at 8:18 PM, Rene B wrote:
> I'm frustrated trying to select a python web framework. I’ve
> researched quite a
> few. CherryPy,Karrigell,Zope 2,3,Grok, Gluon,Django,Mod_Python.
> I’ve also
> looked at templating languages like Spyce, and Cheetah....
> I’m afraid to learn Zope 2 because I have no idea what direction
> it’s going in.
> Not to mention I don’t particularly like ZPT. I’ve read DTML isn’t
> anywhere but I don’t imagine I’ll get much support on it when
> needed and I’m
> sure people will be telling me to use ZPT cause DTML is dead.
> I like cheetah as a tool. There docs are not that great and not
> many examples.
> Plus no auto generated content like you get in Zope 2. Yes some
> magic is
> good. The CRUD is what made Rails over rated to start out
> with.People like some
> magic. saves time. Combining Cheetah and Zope sounds interesting
> to me.
> So what do I do. I like Zope 2. I can’t find any books on it
> released after
> 2002. Plone is tooo much.
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